| Ian Hoare |
Salut/Hi Vilco [out],
You asked on Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:17:46 +0100,
> Please, how to say "passito" in english?
>Maybe "withered" ? Weel, it doesn't sound well.
There isn't really an English word that is perfect. The french use the
expression "passerillé", which some english wine lovers know. "Sun dried"
might be a fair approximation.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
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| Mike Tommasi |
On Fri, 05 Mar 2004 16:21:57 +0100, Ian Hoare <ianhoare@angelfire.com>
wrote:
>Salut/Hi Vilco [out],
>
>You asked on Fri, 5 Mar 2004 14:17:46 +0100,
>
>> Please, how to say "passito" in english?
>
>>Maybe "withered" ? Weel, it doesn't sound well.
>
>There isn't really an English word that is perfect. The french use the
>expression "passerillé", which some english wine lovers know. "Sun dried"
>might be a fair approximation.
Hi Ian
To my knowledge no "passito" comes from sun dried grapes, even proper
Sciacchetra is made in the shade, so to speak. Air dried grapes is
more like it, either in well aired attics or under open shelters.
Mike
Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
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| Ian Hoare |
Salut/Hi Mike Tommasi,
le/on Sun, 07 Mar 2004 11:33:00 +0100, tu disais/you said:-
>>> Please, how to say "passito" in english?
>>
>>>Maybe "withered" ? Weel, it doesn't sound well.
>>
>>There isn't really an English word that is perfect. The french use the
>>expression "passerillé", which some english wine lovers know. "Sun dried"
>>might be a fair approximation.
>To my knowledge no "passito" comes from sun dried grapes, even proper
>Sciacchetra is made in the shade, so to speak. Air dried grapes is
>more like it, either in well aired attics or under open shelters.
Thanks Mike. I had got the impression that these were left on the vine, and
thus dried partly in the sun, partly not, rather than "on straw" as in the
French Vins paillés or Vins de paille.
Thanks for the correction.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
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| Michael Pronay |
Ian Hoare <ianhoare@angelfire.com> wrote:
>>To my knowledge no "passito" comes from sun dried grapes, even proper
>>Sciacchetra is made in the shade, so to speak. Air dried grapes is
>>more like it, either in well aired attics or under open shelters.
> Thanks Mike. I had got the impression that these were left on the
> vine, and thus dried partly in the sun, partly not, rather than "on
> straw" as in the French Vins paill‚s or Vins de paille.
The only wine from sun-dried grapes that comes to my mind is PX sherry
(at least the better examples in former times).
M.
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| Steve Slatcher |
On 7 Mar 2004 16:38:41 GMT, Michael Pronay <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>Ian Hoare <ianhoare@angelfire.com> wrote:
>
>>>To my knowledge no "passito" comes from sun dried grapes, even proper
>>>Sciacchetra is made in the shade, so to speak. Air dried grapes is
>>>more like it, either in well aired attics or under open shelters.
>
>> Thanks Mike. I had got the impression that these were left on the
>> vine, and thus dried partly in the sun, partly not, rather than "on
>> straw" as in the French Vins paill‚s or Vins de paille.
>
>The only wine from sun-dried grapes that comes to my mind is PX sherry
>(at least the better examples in former times).
In former times, Amarone grapes were sun-dried too, at least partly.
Reccioto (which used to part of the name) implies the grapes were
taken from the "ears", or top lobes, of the bunches, where they got
most sun.
--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher
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| Tom S |
"Steve Slatcher" <steve.slatcher@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:cemm40lt3vgqbom396r6qgsslvagfcm6ot@4ax.com...
> In former times, Amarone grapes were sun-dried too, at least partly.
> Reccioto (which used to part of the name) implies the grapes were
> taken from the "ears", or top lobes, of the bunches, where they got
> most sun.
Ah, that's interesting. I had heard of picking the "ears" of clusters, but
had no idea that was done to make Amarone. I'd assumed it was for the top
Brunellos, Barolos or Chiantis - but maybe that's not the case.
I can't even imagine picking my own grapes - let alone ears of clusters.
Even here in California the vines are trained too close to the ground for me
and my weak back to do that for any length of time. :^(
Tom S
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| Mark Lipton |
Tom S wrote:
> I can't even imagine picking my own grapes - let alone ears of clusters.
> Even here in California the vines are trained too close to the ground for me
> and my weak back to do that for any length of time. :^(
Of course you don't, Tom. That's what you get those idealistic young college
students for: to do the backbreaking labor for a farthing in pursuit of
experience in the trade. Hey, it works for the Bordelais, ne c'est pas? :P
Mark Lipton
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| Mike Tommasi |
On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 17:24:50 +0000, Steve Slatcher
<steve.slatcher@pobox.com> wrote:
>On 7 Mar 2004 16:38:41 GMT, Michael Pronay <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>Ian Hoare <ianhoare@angelfire.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>To my knowledge no "passito" comes from sun dried grapes, even proper
>>>>Sciacchetra is made in the shade, so to speak. Air dried grapes is
>>>>more like it, either in well aired attics or under open shelters.
>>
>>> Thanks Mike. I had got the impression that these were left on the
>>> vine, and thus dried partly in the sun, partly not, rather than "on
>>> straw" as in the French Vins paill‚s or Vins de paille.
>>
>>The only wine from sun-dried grapes that comes to my mind is PX sherry
>>(at least the better examples in former times).
Triacca leaves grapes to dry partially on the vine for its Prestigio,
a variation on Sfursat.
>
>In former times, Amarone grapes were sun-dried too, at least partly.
>Reccioto (which used to part of the name) implies the grapes were
>taken from the "ears", or top lobes, of the bunches, where they got
>most sun.
Actually, this is a spurious etimology IMHO, as a bunch of grapes is
called "recio" in some Veneto dialects...
Mike
(Appellation d'Origine Controlee Venezia)
Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
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| Steve Slatcher |
On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 20:26:39 +0100, Mike Tommasi <garbage@tommasi.org>
wrote:
>>In former times, Amarone grapes were sun-dried too, at least partly.
>>Reccioto (which used to part of the name) implies the grapes were
>>taken from the "ears", or top lobes, of the bunches, where they got
>>most sun.
>
>Actually, this is a spurious etimology IMHO, as a bunch of grapes is
>called "recio" in some Veneto dialects...
Interesting. But then how did the term Reccioto come to apply only to
some wines of the region?
--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher
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| Tom S |
"Mark Lipton" <lipton@purdue.edu> wrote in message
news:404B69F1.50FC36F1@purdue.edu...
>
>
> Tom S wrote:
>
> > I can't even imagine picking my own grapes - let alone ears of clusters.
> > Even here in California the vines are trained too close to the ground
for me
> > and my weak back to do that for any length of time. :^(
>
> Of course you don't, Tom. That's what you get those idealistic young
college
> students for: to do the backbreaking labor for a farthing in pursuit of
> experience in the trade. Hey, it works for the Bordelais, ne c'est pas?
:P
LOL! Mark, I'd say it's been awhile since you've been either a student in
California or visited the vineyards during crush. All the pickers are
migrant workers from Mexico - and have been for decades. I'm pretty sure
they aren't going to college in their "spare time". :^/
Tom S
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| Mike Tommasi |
On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 21:18:54 +0000, Steve Slatcher
<steve.slatcher@pobox.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 20:26:39 +0100, Mike Tommasi <garbage@tommasi.org>
>wrote:
>
>>>In former times, Amarone grapes were sun-dried too, at least partly.
>>>Reccioto (which used to part of the name) implies the grapes were
>>>taken from the "ears", or top lobes, of the bunches, where they got
>>>most sun.
>>
>>Actually, this is a spurious etimology IMHO, as a bunch of grapes is
>>called "recio" in some Veneto dialects...
>
>Interesting. But then how did the term Reccioto come to apply only to
>some wines of the region?
That would be Recioto... sorry to be picky. The masculine ending "oto"
is, how would you describe this, the contrary of a diminutive.
Indicating a large bunch. The word "ear" is actually a feminine noun,
"recia". The word for bunch of grapes is masculine, "recio". A large
bunch would be a "recioto".
Why the name only describes these wines? I don't know.
There is another etymology that seems plausible, where Recioto would
be a contraction of a word meaning "from the Retic area", "oto" also
being an ending indicating provenance (ex., in Venetian, a person from
Chioggia, or Ciosa, is a Ciosoto). The Retic Alps are the group just
to the west of the Carnia area (the italian counterpart of Carynthia)
It may be impossible to find the real origin.
Mike
Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
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| Max Hauser |
Mike Tommasi" in news:m07n40pkcoduvq0baj3b01vsvbibtgtnq0@4ax.com...
> <steve.slatcher@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >Interesting. But then how did the term Reccioto come to apply only to
> >some wines of the region?
>
> That would be Recioto... sorry to be picky. The masculine ending "oto"
> is, how would you describe this, the contrary of a diminutive.
> Indicating a large bunch. The word "ear" is actually a feminine noun,
> "recia". The word for bunch of grapes is masculine, "recio". A large
> bunch would be a "recioto". ...
>
> There is another etymology that seems plausible, where Recioto would
> be a contraction of a word meaning "from the Retic area", "oto" also
> being an ending indicating provenance ...
If I may suggest, as a word enthusiast, in the spirit of this discourse, and
from my years decades ago moonlighting as an ill-paid editor, with deadlines
and indignant sensitive authors and all that, "There is ... that ... " is
inefficient, and slightly notorious. I'd offer "Another etymology seems
plausible."
For what it's worth. ("Vigorous writing is concise.") ("Where there's life
there's hope.") ("Hope is what keeps us alive.")
Last is from one of the short stories that R. Chandler eventually recycled
into _The Big Sleep,_ 1941. Good night.
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| Mike Tommasi |
On Sun, 7 Mar 2004 20:51:01 -0800, "Max Hauser"
<maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com> wrote:
>Mike Tommasi" in news:m07n40pkcoduvq0baj3b01vsvbibtgtnq0@4ax.com...
>> <steve.slatcher@pobox.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Interesting. But then how did the term Reccioto come to apply only to
>> >some wines of the region?
>>
>> That would be Recioto... sorry to be picky. The masculine ending "oto"
>> is, how would you describe this, the contrary of a diminutive.
>> Indicating a large bunch. The word "ear" is actually a feminine noun,
>> "recia". The word for bunch of grapes is masculine, "recio". A large
>> bunch would be a "recioto". ...
>>
>> There is another etymology that seems plausible, where Recioto would
>> be a contraction of a word meaning "from the Retic area", "oto" also
>> being an ending indicating provenance ...
>
>If I may suggest, as a word enthusiast, in the spirit of this discourse, and
>from my years decades ago moonlighting as an ill-paid editor, with deadlines
>and indignant sensitive authors and all that, "There is ... that ... " is
>inefficient, and slightly notorious. I'd offer "Another etymology seems
>plausible."
Thanks for the pointers Max. By way of excuse, for 15 years I have
been living in a non-english speaking country, and my prose may often
lapse into gallic-style phrase constructions. Here the opposite rule
applies: vigorous writing is verbose... ;-)
Mike
Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
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| Vilco [out] |
Mike Tommasi wrote:
> To my knowledge no "passito" comes from sun dried grapes,
> even proper Sciacchetra is made in the shade, so to
> speak. Air dried grapes is more like it, either in well
> aired attics or under open shelters.
So have a trip to Piacenza, at Cantina "La Stoppa", where
they make a wonderful passito white, "Vigna del Volta".
They use malvasia and moscato and let grapes dry on white
curtains in theyr fields for 15 days.
It's a hard job: every morning they have to go uncover the
grapes, then at evening they go back to cover them. And if
it starts raining, they must run to cover the grapes.
But the results are nice.
Vilco
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| Ian Hoare |
Salut/Hi Michael Pronay,
le/on 7 Mar 2004 16:38:41 GMT, tu disais/you said:-
>Ian Hoare <ianhoare@angelfire.com> wrote:
>
>>>To my knowledge no "passito" comes from sun dried grapes, even proper
>>>Sciacchetra is made in the shade, so to speak. Air dried grapes is
>>>more like it, either in well aired attics or under open shelters.
>
>> Thanks Mike. I had got the impression that these were left on the
>> vine, and thus dried partly in the sun, partly not, rather than "on
>> straw" as in the French Vins paill‚s or Vins de paille.
>
>The only wine from sun-dried grapes that comes to my mind is PX sherry
>(at least the better examples in former times).
Come come, Michael, unless we're talking at "cross purposes" here, almost
all sweet wines from South-West France (excluding the riverside botrytised
wines) are passerillé - dried by sun and wind on the vine. Thus, Gaillac,
Jurançon, Pacherenc de Vic Bilh, are ALL made in that way.
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
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| Ian Hoare |
Salut/Hi Mike Tommasi,
le/on Mon, 08 Mar 2004 08:04:40 +0100, tu disais/you said:-
>>inefficient, and slightly notorious. I'd offer "Another etymology seems
>>plausible."
>
>Thanks for the pointers Max. By way of excuse, for 15 years I have
>been living in a non-english speaking country, and my prose may often
>lapse into gallic-style phrase constructions. Here the opposite rule
>applies: vigorous writing is verbose... ;-)
Chuckle... join the clan of expats struggling with their English. however I
can't resist a comment on your last.
I'd have said "The opposite rule is apposite .. etc ".
--
All the Best
Ian Hoare
http://www.souvigne.com
mailbox full to avoid spam. try me at website
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| Michael Pronay |
Ian Hoare <ianhoare@angelfire.com> wrote:
>>The only wine from sun-dried grapes that comes to my mind is PX
>>sherry (at least the better examples in former times).
> Come come, Michael, unless we're talking at "cross purposes"
> here, almost all sweet wines from South-West France (excluding
> the riverside botrytised wines) are passerillé - dried by sun
> and wind on the vine.
Apparently I didn't make it clear that my example referred to
harvested grapes. Grapes on the vine is another story, of course,
and of course there are many more wines with grapes harvested
passerillé; Tokaj in dry years immediately come to my mind.
M.
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| Steve Slatcher |
On Sun, 07 Mar 2004 23:16:24 +0100, Mike Tommasi <garbage@tommasi.org>
wrote:
>>Interesting. But then how did the term Reccioto come to apply only to
>>some wines of the region?
>
>That would be Recioto... sorry to be picky.
No problem. I'm (usually) pedantic by nature myself.
And thanks again for the further insights into the etymology!
--
Steve Slatcher
http://pobox.com/~steve.slatcher
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| Mike Tommasi |
On 8 Mar 2004 13:01:15 GMT, Michael Pronay <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>Ian Hoare <ianhoare@angelfire.com> wrote:
>
>>>The only wine from sun-dried grapes that comes to my mind is PX
>>>sherry (at least the better examples in former times).
>
>> Come come, Michael, unless we're talking at "cross purposes"
>> here, almost all sweet wines from South-West France (excluding
>> the riverside botrytised wines) are passerillé - dried by sun
>> and wind on the vine.
>
>Apparently I didn't make it clear that my example referred to
>harvested grapes. Grapes on the vine is another story, of course,
>and of course there are many more wines with grapes harvested
>passerillé; Tokaj in dry years immediately come to my mind.
Agreed, we were talking about "passito". Grapes drying on the vine
produce something italians would call "vendemmia tardiva".
So does everyone agree :
passito = vin de paille = wine from air dried grapes
vendemmia tardiva = vendange tardive = late harvest wine
Mike
Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
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| Tom S |
"Mike Tommasi" <garbage@tommasi.org> wrote in message
news:nfqq40lpn81a2h192u6a9b84lsn60vp4a9@4ax.com...
> So does everyone agree :
>
> passito = vin de paille = wine from air dried grapes
> vendemmia tardiva = vendange tardive = late harvest wine
Sounds good to me, Mike. Now, what do you call botrytised wines in Italian
(and French)? Vendemmia tardiva doesn't necessarily have botrytis -
correct?
Tom S
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| Mike Tommasi |
On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 13:44:06 GMT, "Tom S" <toms@spamlesspacbell.net>
wrote:
>
>"Mike Tommasi" <garbage@tommasi.org> wrote in message
>news:nfqq40lpn81a2h192u6a9b84lsn60vp4a9@4ax.com...
>> So does everyone agree :
>>
>> passito = vin de paille = wine from air dried grapes
>> vendemmia tardiva = vendange tardive = late harvest wine
>
>Sounds good to me, Mike. Now, what do you call botrytised wines in Italian
>(and French)? Vendemmia tardiva doesn't necessarily have botrytis -
>correct?
Botrytis wine is called anything from "muffato" to "acini nobili".
Botrytis can be referred to as "marciume nobile" (noble rot) or "muffa
nobile".
All of these I think would still be classified as (extreme) forms of
"passito". Although I personally know that when botrytis enters the
equation, everything is transformed, it's just incomparable to a
normal "passito".
Mike
Mike Tommasi, Six Fours, France
email link http://www.tommasi.org/mymail
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| Vilco [out] |
Tom S wrote:
> Sounds good to me, Mike. Now, what do you call
> botrytised wines in Italian (and French)? Vendemmia
> tardiva doesn't necessarily have botrytis - correct?
"Botritizzati", straigth translation of the english term,
but it's more technical than common speech.
Someone says "muffiti", but that scares people so they
specifiy that these wines are "muffiti dalla muffa nobile"
(moulded by the noble mould).
Vilco
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